All right, here's my tale of woe. Last Sunday I was doing my annual winterizing to the Ginster, and as part of
the process I swapped out my Boxster calipers/TT rotors and put on the OEM VR6 calipers and rotors. After
bleeding the brakes I guess I pushed the brake pedal to the floor, which I only later learned can f*ck up the
seals in the master cylinder. Nice, right? After the brake bleed, I had to pump the pedal like 5 or 6 times to
get any bakes at all, and since there were no bubbles in the brake fluid when I bled the system, and there
there were no leaks anywhere, I figured my master cylinder was well and truly f*cked.

So, I ordered a brand new MC from German Auto Parts and put that on this morning. I bled the brakes again,
then I used a buddy's VAG COM to cycle the ABS, then bled the brakes again. This time, though, whether I pump
the brake pedal 5 or 100 times (and *not* going to the floor this time), I HAVE NO BRAKES AT ALL. Nothing.
Zip. Nada.

I then bled the brakes again (with the Power Bleeder I've used several times before), with no improvement. I
then tried bleeding the passenger rear caliper the old-school way (pump pump pump hold, open the bleeder
valve, etc.) and brake fluid came out just as it should have, which leads me to believe that the new MC is
doing its job. I used the VAG COM again (a couple of times) to cycle the ABS, to no effect. After all the
bleeding I did today, there's no way there can be any air left in the system. And even if there were, after 5
or 10 pumps of the pedal it would have compressed enough to make the brakes work at least a little bit. But
no. I had the car up on jack stands, I had it in neutral, engine running, no ABS light or brake idiot light,
spun each wheel, pumped the brake pedal, and not one wheel was grabbed by the brakes.

So I'm now at a complete loss, drinking beer after beer, wracking my brain trying to figure out what the
freakin' problem might be. Anybody with any ideas? I love my car, but right now I feel like turning it into a
huge molotov cocktail.

TIA,
Griff

The hydraulic clutch uses the same brake fluid right?  Are both of these
systems separate, or are they linked?  

Clutch uses the same fluid.  Had both of mine changed early this year.

-Jason

No, I don't think there's any problem between the brake pedal and the MC. As I said in my post, I did try
bleeding at least one caliper the old-school way, and when I had the bleeder valve open I told my buddy
sitting in the car to pump the pedal. This resulted in fluid shooting out of the valve each time he pumped it,
which means that the brake pedal must be actuating the master cylinder, which in turn must be pushing fluid
through the lines. As I say, this whole scenario seems to be defying the laws of physics.

Since I'm grasping at straws at this point, I'm going to put another set of OEM calipers and lines on today
and see if anything changes. But I'm not optimistic.

Damn.

--Griff 

Yup, the brakes and the clutch are on the same hydraulic system. I bled the clutch slave cylinder when I bled
the brakes (several times!), so although I don't have X-ray vision, I'd bet dollars to donuts that there's no
air anywhere in the system.

This is just such a f*cking headache, I can't even tell you.

--Griff 

was everything fine before you bleed the brakes? if so whatever u did its 
right there to check over again, brakes are pretty simple, the excess pressure is 
going somewhere, didnt knock and vac lines loose if theres any on the master 
cyl.?

Griff:

Do both the ABS light or brake warning light come on when you start the car
and do they cycle off after a few seconds after the ignition is turned on?
Burnt bulb? I wonder if the valve/valves in the ABS unit are seating or a
problem in there, as you say there are no external leaks and the master
pumps fluid (with ignition off?).

Stacy Iwata

Yup, the ABS and brake idiot lights come on and then cycle off, just as you say. And according to the VAG COM
I'm not throwing any codes at all. I'm still scratching my head. At least it won't be snowing today, so I can
freeze my balls off riding the Ducati in to work today.

My buddy with the VAG COM was checking his Mk 4 GTI CD Bentley yesterday and spotted a different ABS cycling
procedure, so we're going to try that this evening when he gets off work. Failing that, I'm going to try to
buy a local dealership tech named Rodney lunch tomorrow and pick his brain. Hell, if he can tell me how to
solve this huge pain in the ass, I might even blow him.

Not really.

--Griff 

Yup, Brizzy ol' boy, I've been down this particular trail of thought all week. You're right, the pressure has
to be going somewhere, but it's not visible anywhere. More on this in a second.

As far as I can tell, there's only one brake-related vacuum line involved, i.e. the thick, shiny one coming
off the front of the intake manifold on the right side and going back to the vacuum booster behind the MC.
With the engine off I pulled that line off at the vacuum booster and got a nice whoooosh, which tells me that
the booster itself and the check valve in the line are both fine.

Going through the process of elimination over and over again, it seems there are only 2 possible culprits: the
master cylinder, or the ABS module. I checked to see if the brake pedal was still engaging the push rod
through the vacuum booster to the MC, and that all seems fine. I checked all four calipers with the engine off
to see if the the MC was pushing fluid to all four corners, and that seems fine, too. It's a brand new ATE OEM
VR6 master cylinder from Adirondack, so I'd be very surprised if it were a faulty part right out of the box
(not impossible, though). And I have no idea what might have made the ABS module take a dump. In
removing/replacing the master cylinder I DIDN'T DO ANYTHING TO IT, aside from disconnecting its lines and
electrical connection. Following the intuitive VAG COM menu options and instructions we cycled the module no
fewer than 3 times, but if my buddy has now spotted a new VAG COM procedure we can try, then I'll grasp at
that straw, too.

Man, this sucks so bad.

--Griff 

did u happen to bleed the master cylinder before u installed it/>??

If there's no air in the system and you know the pedal is getting fluid to the calipers then have you verified
that all is working at the calipers/pads?  Can you see the pads move if you get someone to work the pedal
while you watch? Will a feeler gauge fit in between the pad and rotor when the pedal is depressed?  Will the
e-brake work the rears?

I hope I didn't glance over you having tried this already. But all I've read is that you've changed the master
cylinder, made sure the lines were free of air, and done the ABS thing with the VAG-COM.  I just wanted to
chime in with that so all your bases are covered.

Good luck!

matt.
'98 GTI VR6 

griff,
you try swapping the TT calipers back on?  Just wondering if something went wrong while the OE's were sitting
all summer (dried seals or something).  Good luck.  You understand that your problem here will pave the way
for another lister down the road that has the same PITA brain buster?  Just trying to shed some light for you
to attempt to ease your pain.
regards,
shawn

You're talking about bench bleeding the MC, right? No, I didn't. The guy I talked to at Adirondack (Mark)
swears that in 20 years of working on VWs, he's never bench bled a MC before installing it. I took him at his
word and didn't do it either.

And even if I should have bench bled it, still, it would just mean that air would be at the very front of the
system, and I'd *still* be able to compress it enough to get the brakes to firm up. But no, I get no pedal
pressure and no brakes either at the front (i.e. swapped calipers) or at the rear (same calipers and lines
year round).

Keep 'em coming, people. I appreciate your thoughts.

--Griff 

yah benchbleeding is correct
replaced a master cylinder in an 83 buick skylark and it said to bench bleed
it

No, I haven't actually taken the front rotors off and checked whether the piston is moving in the caliper.
Didn't think of it, so I'll do that this evening when I go out and f*ck with it some more. I may even put the
Boxster brakes back on and see if that has any effect.

And yes, the e-brake does work, but if I'm not mistaken, that's just a mechanical connection and has nothing
to do with the hydraulics. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

--Griff 

Yes, the ebrake uses a mechanical "connection", not hydraulic.  This is
quite the predicament you have here Griff.  I was bouncing this off a
few other dubbers that are "in the know", and they are stumped as well.
What year is your car again?


Sincerely,



Barry Kuiack (Kooz)
1997 Jetta GLX
www.GenerationDUB.com
=====================

Yeah, the rear is mechanical.  But since the e-brake works you can rule out a problem with the rear brake
assemblies themselves.  At least mechanically.

If it were me in your shoes, I'd be making things way too complicated and would have done something stupid
like not put pads in. :-)  That's why I like making sure the simple things are double-checked.

matt.

Nope, I haven't tried that yet, so I guess I will tonight. And thanks for the pep talk, I appreciate it. I
just with mine weren't the sacrificial GTI.

--Griff


Shawn Burns wrote:

> griff,
> you try swapping the TT calipers back on?  Just wondering if something went wrong while the OE's were
> sitting all summer (dried seals or something).  Good luck.  You understand that your problem here will pave
> the way for another lister down the road that has the same PITA brain buster?  Just trying to shed some
> light for you to attempt to ease your pain.
> regards,
> shawn 

You still have AIR in the system, simple as that.
Why did you replace your master cylinder anyway??

1. Bleed all calipers, do it by hand, you may need to
pump the pedal, many times, its going to stay soft for
a while, just keep bleeding. Start from the Rear

2. Bleed the master cylinder with VAG-Com, go to the
ABS Menu, select test output, follow the on screen
instructions, bleed each line then, do not run the
pump for more then 30 seconds, it will overheat.

3. Your pedal should be coming back by now, now
rebleed all the calipers again.

not necessarily.  Had a friend with a 16v jetta.  We ran two quarts of good fluid through the system with no
visible bubbles or leaks and it still had a really spungee brake feel.  Turns out the bleeder screw was messed
up on one of the calipers and required a new caliper since it wasn't sealing up properly.  Griff, check those
bleeder screws yet?  Once my bud did this, it worked like tits (my new fav. descriptive word).  We couldn't
figure out what was wrong for the life of us.  My bud used to be a race mechanic so he should understand brake
systems.  My freaking leg was mush from pumping the pedal so many times by the time we were done.  This
experince is why I assume it is caliper related.
regards,
shawn

VW Golf <vr6nitedriver@yahoo> wrote:
> You still have AIR in the system, simple as that.
> [...]

Aside from buying new bleeder screws all around, I don't know how better to check them than to have bled the
entire system no fewer than 4 times over the past several days. Seriously, is there some way to take the
bleeder valves out of the calipers and test them? Throughout all the bleedings they all flowed fine when open
and closed up tight when screwed down. Doesn't this mean they're fine?

--Griff 

griff,

 yeah that's what we thought about the bleeder screw on my buds jetta.  His was stripped in there but appeared
to be sealed up, since it wasn't leaking any fluid out.  However, we assumed afterwards that the screw was
allowing for air to be drawn in.  Seems unlikely, but after we replaced the caliper, it worked great.  Did you
try the other calipers yet?

regards,

shawn

there fine, maybe you were spose to bleed the pump before u put it in, call 
the local vw place and ask for a mechanich, or better yet go by there and walk 
into the mechnic shop, tell them u dont have much money so u swapped it 
yourself, explain whats going on and i bet they will have the magic answer and b 
cool about it, i have done this before

I think you should bench bleed it, then bleed the
whole thing all over again...bleeding the system 4
times may not be enough, just to bleed the hydralic
clutch, takes a minimum of 20 times, before you get
normal pedal feel

I'm not sure what you mean by "it takes 20 times" to bleed the clutch. I bled the clutch the first time I bled
the brakes after the caliper swap, and it's the one thing on the hydraulic system that *does* work the way it
should. I've had good clutch function and pedal feel since the word go.

But maybe the bench bleeding is a good idea. Any ideas on how exactly to do it? The MC came new out of the box
without any of the bleeder hoses or rubber caps that I've seen come with remanufactured MCs.

--Griff 

So here's my update. A buddy of mine talked to a BMW tech the other day and explained my problem to him.
Without even hesitating he said, "The calipers are on upside down. Happens in the shop from time to time. Same
symptoms."

DOH!

I immediately copped a ride back out to my friend's house where the disabled Ginster sat. Sure and be-Jeezus,
there the bleeder screws were pointing down at the floor, the hose fitting at the bottom of the piston
housing. Oh. My. God. No fewer than four self-styled dub-heads had been looking at my brake system almost
every day for two weeks, and not one person even noticed. Of course, I take full responsibility for having put
'em on on the wrong sides when I originally swapped out the Boxster calipers, but I think it's pretty
hilarious that it didn't even occur to any of us to look. I was *this close* to giving up and just having the
whole frustrating mess towed in to the dealership. I'm so glad I didn't.

So, $200 and a shiny, new, unneeded master cylinder later, I learned a very good lesson. Assume nothing. Ever.

--Griff
brake stompin' mo-fo ed. 

Just remember - we're laughing WITH you, not at you . . .   :-)  That's
classic!  Glad you were able to get it figured out.

Later,

Luke
'97 GTI VR6 (been in similar situations edition)

I must say that you make me feel better about the dumb ass things that I
do.  You're not alone out there brother.

-jim t

how in the hell do you put a caliper on upside down? did you have them 
disconnected from the hose and have them  on the wrong sides???

No, he explained that he was changing out his 4-pot calipers for the
stockers for winter.  Somehow the left & right stock calipers got mixed up.

-Jason