Ross B Stuart wrote:
> I've got a question for those of you that remove your wheels a lot...
> Where do you jack the car up?

  I jack the car up at the sill jack points.  I first drive the front
  wheels onto two lengths of 2x6 to make the car high enough to get
  the hydraulic jack under the sill.


  I made a "jacking block"



  out of pine 2x4.
  

  On top I
  screwed on two small pieces of oak that would cradle the jacking
  "lip" like the factory jack.  I routed a circle underneath the block
  for the jack's head to fit into.  Then I routed the circle to open it
  out to one side, so I can easily slide the jack's head in under
  the block.

> Whenever I need to remove my wheels (or put the car up on jackstands) I
> use the jack in the truck as a pre-jack, get the car up high enough for my
> hydraulic jack [...]

  You can try the "drive onto 2x6s" routine like I do.

> which I apply to a sturdy part of the floorpan (which caves
> in).

  I used to use the jack directly on the "factory" underbody jack point
  as illustrated in the Bentley manual.  But the jack's head is too small
  to be supporting so much weight, so it ended up deforming the underbody
  jack points in the front.

Sat Apr 26 11:33:48 CDT 2003
Here's a pic of what I mean. The area in question is just at the tail of the red arrow.

  The areas in the back right in front of the
  swingarm's pivots, where I used to use to jack the rear up, is VERY
  sturdy and has survived unscathed.

  Nowadays, I just jack the front up high enough to get both wheels off
  the ground when I change tire.  It saves me half the jacking work
  and speeds up tire changing considerably.

> I then put the jackstands on the existing points.  This method is
> working for now, but each time I do it I push the floor of the car up a
> little hile softening it up and removing undercoating.
>
> Is this the only option, or is there something else (or someplace else) to
> do?

  You can try jacking the car up by putting the jack under the A arm.
	

Actually, you should put the jack under the subframe's A arm attachment point, like so, not under the A arm itself!
aqn 2001 Apr 07

--
Andy Nguyen \ aqn@tivoli \ Tivoli Systems, Austin, TX \ 512.436.8229
	Ave, XTela, morituri te salutamus.

Andy sez:
>  Personally, I have never had the car up on jack stands.  It does
>  not feel safe to me.  If you really really want to do it, put
>  the jack stands under the A arms for the front, and under the
>  flat area in front of the torsion beam's pivots for the rear.
>
>  Also, put a tire under the car so something will keep it off
>  the ground (if not off of your chest!  |-( ) if both the stands
>  and the jack fail.

I spent last week under a GTi 16V on jack stands (Don't get me started on
how much fun it is to change the rear axle). Do it right and it ain't going
nowhere. Andy's certainly correct about putting something under the car,
though. I use a "lucky log" (Where's Wally when you need him?) or a spare
wheel. BTW, all you cheapskates who think you'll just put the car on cinder
blocks, don't do it. Cinder blocks can crack, crumble, and break under the
weight. Pony up the $15-20 for a set of jack stands. If you're going to
leave the jack under there as a safety, too, I'd recommend letting ALL of
the car's weight onto the stands and leave the jacks just barely touching
the car. If the jack gives and the weight falls onto the stands and should
happen to slip off them or otherwise fail, you're in bad shape. Remember
that the car tends to move around a little bit when jacking, so it may not
come directly down when lowering the jack.

Anyway, enough jacking tips for one day. Go forth and jack. After you're
done, go attempt to lift your vehicle with a hydraulic lifting device and
place it on sturdy supports. :)

Josh

Josh Tibbs
xjosh@one


http://w3.one.net/~xjosh

Cedric,
This a montage of 3 prior posts so, forgive if somewhat disjointed.

On jacks . . .
I recently researched floor jacks.(I didn't buy one because I don't feel
like storing it and my friend has one which I can use any time).   I found
that a local auto parts store that specializes in TRUCK parts had the best
jacks.  While Sears was ok, they were not great.  The only thing I buy at
Sears these days is the Craftsman sockets and wrenches.  I like that "no
questions" replacement policy!

I'd definitely go for one that allows for jacking and raising without
removing
the handle.  Also a retractable handle is nice.

On tonnage, I believe bigger is better.  The jack will do less work to
raise your vehicle.
You also need a set of jack stands.  NO jack is safe to go under the car
without jack stands.


On jack stands . . .
Again, I found that TRUCK parts store had the best
jack stands.  They were the same price and much better quality.  Look for
the size of the stock the legs are constructed of.
Also look at the tops.  They should be fork shaped and not smooth.  Smooth
will slip.  Also, the tops should be cast and not sheet metal.

On Lift Points . . .
DO NOT LIFT THE CAR USING ANY SUSPENSION PARTS.
There are two places to lift your vehicle, 1. rocker panel lift point and
2. uni-body lift point(this is what I call them)
1. Rocker panel lift point is any one of the four points referred to in
your owners' manual just behind the front wheels and just IFO the rear
wheels.  You must use the stock jack because any other will bend the slim
sheet metal.
2. Uni-body lift points are any one of the four points located just inboard
of the four rocker panel lift points.  Lay on floor and look up under the
car.  You will see the lift point(see note).  Your mechanic's floor jack
will lift your car from all four of these simultaneously.  I use these
points to lift or better yet, to place a jack stand.
Note: On my A2, it was a round hole.  The VR6 has a round hole, an oval
hole and a raised flat area.  I've yet to try each to see which is best or
proper.  Jack slowly and listen for any creaking.  Maybe call VW.  I'll
find out next week when my Shine suspension arrives.

On Jacking . . .
NEVER place any part of your person under a vehicle which is only supported
by a jack.
ALWAYS back up a mechanical lift device(i.e. jack) with non-mechanical
device(i.e. jack stands, wood cribbing or rim is ok in a pinch) placed
under a lift point.
NEVER use cement blocks to support your vehicle.

I like to use the stock jack to lift the car for the following reason.  It
allows me to lift the car and then slide a jack stand under the uni-body
lift point.  I like to remove the forked top from the stand and use a block
of wood Between the stand and the uni-body.  This seems to be the most
STABLE way to support the car(although somewhat lower than heights
attainable WITH the forks).  Lift one side at a time and slide in a stand.
To lower, reverse the procedure.

Jack Modifications . . .
I use a block of wood b/w the jack "cup" and the uni-body lift point.
Sometimes plywood works better.  I also have a custom made attachment for
the jack.  I remove the "cup" and drop in a gimmick which looks like a
trailer ball.  This ball is ideal for jacking from the uni-body lift
point.(see note above)  Another gimmick I'd like to have is an attachment
to lift from the rocker panel lift point.  I'm told they exist, but could
never locate.  If you can find please advise.

Ramps . . .
I had a set of steel.  They were bulky.  They were also too steep to drive
onto.  They used to kick out.  Sold 'em.
Made a set of wood ramps.  Used blocks of 2x10 lumber cut ends on 45angle,
screw/glue together.  Safe, compact, never kick out and perfect height for
oil change and the like.
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXX\
XXXXX         XXXXXXXXX\

This is all I know,
TomV, '98 Red VR6
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In a message dated 98-09-20 10:43:40 EDT, TomJV@bestweb writes:

<<
 On Lift Points . . .
 DO NOT LIFT THE CAR USING ANY SUSPENSION PARTS.   >>


Why NOT!!!......I do not feel comfortable lifting the car from the 4 points
VWoA recommends....(this is how doors start to sag, and scratch the paint for
rust to start)

Do a test...lift the car from one of the points VW wants....then Try to open
or close the doors....U will see what I'm talking about!!!!!!
and this is how some people test to see how ridged the chassis is.
My brother jacked up his 91 5.0 from the front factory point....He open the
door and the door looked like it dropped 2 inches!!! Then, he had  to really
slam the door shut...

This is how I jack,

Front.....I slide the floor jack from the front of the car and I place it
behind the wheel and lift the car from the A-arm.....

Rear....slide the Jack in front(side) of the rear wheel...and use the flat
corner of the rear suspention Bar....(not swaybar)

This is how i used to jack my scirocco all these years....Worked for ME!!

DGTIVR6
6/97 Gti-vr6 DE(my way of jacking, Edition)

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Finally,
My new Shine setup arrived.  One big ugly busted-up box.  I went to work
and got the fronts done.  Pretty weird with those short front springs.  I
turned around  and got some "boing" type noises when turning the wheel in
the driveway.  Any feedback?  Took it for a ride and seems fine.
Definitely needs the rears.  Seems to kick out through the corners.
Next, the car seems to run rough now when cold.  Feedback?  Maybe Fall is
here?  I only removed the cone from the airbox.  Else is stock.
BTW, I jacked up the car and place on jackstands.  No prob.  I used the
flat area a few inches behind the stock jack point.
1. Em. Brake on!     (break wheel nuts now, close doors and open driver
window)
2. Lift with stock jack.
3. Slide stand(with fork removed) into position.
4. Insert 2x4 block.
5. Lower stock jack (re-check position of stand)
6. Repeat 2-5 on other side.

BTW I can see and feel the uni-body bending when lifting with the stock
jack.  This is why the doors must be closed till the stands are in place.
This is normal and does not perm. damage.  Hey, my stock jack from wifey's
jetta is made by Bilstein.

Rears after breakfast.  Will advise.
TomV, '98 Golf VR6
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My current solution, for when I'm home with my floor jack, is to use a 1 foot
piece of 2x4 between the jack head and a point just below the door sill parallel
to the door. This spreads the pressure of the jack over a much larger surface area
thereby eliminating any dimpled floor pans. Of course I had to mess up once to
move to that method <g>.

If you place this combo about 1 foot from the front wheel you can lift both wheels
at once - rotations, etc.

As far as the stock jack goes, I go slooow n with a prayer - lucky so far.
-
*****
Peace
Drew
*****
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With winter on the way, I decided to rotate the tires to put the best
tread up front.  There was some discussion of the jack point a while
back.  Well, here it is.

My car up on two wheels.
http://shell.rmi.net/~frechett/jackpt.jpg

What I did was take a 2 by 6 and lay it diagnally across the stock
mount point like this.

  . __  _//______  __
 | (__) //\       (__)-
 |    '//  jack here   |
 |     |               | rear
 |  __/            __  |
 `.(__) _________ (__)-

The far end is resting at the rear mount point of the A-arm, just below
where the anti-roll bar runs through it's rubber bushings.
I put the jack just inside the rail so that when lifting it would apply
a slight pressure to the far end of the board.   Lifting it up, the rail
at the stock jack point carries most of the load and bites into the wood a
good quarter inch. The 2x6 spreads the load pretty evenly and the fact
that the other end of the board is resting against metal edges keeps it from
moving lengthwise and allowing the rail to fold over.

I may eventually make up a short 2x4 block with the groove in it, as
others have done, but this was so easy and felt very stable, I'm in
no hurry.   Took me about 40 minutes to rotate all the tires.  I've
wasted more time than that getting to, waiting in and returning from
the tire shop for service.

Oh, and that little 4000 lb floor jack I picked up at some parts place
for $29 works great.

	ian
98 GTI-VR6 up on two wheel edition.

P.S. Finally got a good look at the MacPherson struts.  I now grok
     why they are so evil when it comes to proper handling, with
     respect to lowering roll center and induced positive camber.

P.P.S.  Damned tire shop put like 120 ft-lbs of torque on the wheel bolts.
     Luckily I told them to torque the lock bolt by hand, so it was
     somewhat more reasonable.
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"THOMAS R SMITH" <TOM122@prodigy> wrote:
>Hi Everybody:
>
>This may be a stupid question, but where is a safe place to put a floor jack
>underneath
>our cars??   I looked and looked and tried a few places but without any
>luck.  I NEVER

I have a 3 foot long 2 by 6 that I put diagonally from just behind the
stock jackpoint (behind the front tire), across over to the hardpoint
just behind where the front sway bar bushings are.

I then place the jack under the board just inside the edge of the car, so
that most of the pressure is close to the stock jackpoint..
In that position the edges at both endpoints of the board dig into the wood
a little and keep it from slipping, and I can jack up both tires on one
side at once quite easily.   This works without bending anything because
the metal edges above both ends of the board dig into the wood a little
and the inside end keeps the outside from slipping and bending the edge
of the body over at the stock jack point.


Or you could try what other folks do.  Get a short, 6 inch long piece of
2x6 and cut a groove in it just deep and wide enough to put over the
bottom edge of the car body.  That'll distribute the pressure such that
nothing bends.

	ian

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  One should ALWAYS block the car after jacking it up.  That is, put
  a large sturdy object under a sturdy point of the car's underbody
  so that if the car falls off the jack stands, it won't fall flat on
  the floor (or on one's head, should one happends to be underneath
  the car).

  I usually put a wheel/tire under the door sill, like so:




  Also, if you don't need the hydraulic jack, leave it in place &
  engaged, as an extra "safety catch".

  (The block of wood on top of the hydraulic jack's head is a
  jacking block
  that I made.)

Go to www.eastwood.com and look for their pinch weld adapter (p/n 43042).  I
had to modify it to fit my little Craftsman jack (shortened the adapter
itself and shortened the steel cylinder that helps attach it to the jack ,
but it works extremely well.  No more bent jack points!!

Luke
'97 GTI VR6